I like the urine idea. Have to get rid of it somehow anyway...and if one were living "off the grid" this would be one way I suppose. Composting toilets don't add much since the nitro is long gone after it's composted (this is a precaution against bacteria--Chinese farmers traditionally used fresh "night soil" which is why Chinese people traditionally refuse to eat raw vegetables), but they add some minerals and perhaps more importantly will eventually break down into some humus. You can make "compost tea" using an aquarium pump and aerator to aerate a barrel of water and compost. The aerator is needed to prevent accumulation of anaerobic bacteria which are not good for plants (or people).I haven't actually tried this but this is what is recommended in my soil microbes book. This is affordable but unfortunately not really "frugal" because aquarium pumps require electricity and they don't last forever. For nitrogen I grow a lot of nitrogen-fixers. Probably all of the herbaceous members of Leguminaceae are capable of it, some woody members can, and various other plants like Ceanothus also harbor nitrogen-fixing bacteria. I grow several species of Lupines around the base of my fruit trees and in my mixed borders, Strawberry Clover and Lathyrus sativus var azureus in vegetable beds over the winter, and I am currently trying to raise a single specimen of Acacia angustissima (a native of the southern prairies of the USA) to maturity to produce seed as another promising nitrogen-fixer. As much fertilizer as I do use, I strongly prefer longer-lasting, old-fashioned types like rock phosphorus and Jersey Greensand. They are not as fast as liquid but they take longer to leach out.

I only trap rabbits, kitty. I could not possibly trap all the squirrels. Plus, both rabbits and squirrels are considered "pests" here in California, and you're not allowed to trap and release them, or you'll be fined. I do release the rabbits, but just to my own front yard. The squirrels would be impossible - I would be trapping hundreds of them. I use poison bait stations with non-through kill bait, so I won't kill a hawk, owl, coyote, my own dog, or a weasel that might eat the poisoned squirrel or rat. The only downside of using non-through kill bait is there is NO antidote. So, you must make sure your dog or small children cannot get to the bait. Patty S.

Hey there, Thanks a bunch for the positive encouragement about my front yard plans. My neighbors are all convinced that Im crazy because they all have chemlawn rectangles in their front yard. Secondly, my name is greg. I am not offended by being called bob, or frank, fred, or even mary. My screen name, sunshineboy, was how I was referred to as by the employees of the spermbank where I used to donate sperm....but thats another story and I have already hijacked this thread enough. So I wanted to reply to a few of the last posts. Kt..last fall I planted some trees to create some anchor points. I put in a dogwood, a quaking aspen, a lace leaf weeping red maple, a redbud, a pear tree, a dwarf saturn peach tree, and my showpiece..a dwarf lavender weeping redbud. But as pointed out, it looked ridiculous during the winter without winter interest. I do have a few boulders and height elevations, but I needed something else. I have a few taller pampas grasses (but those are temporary for a few years). I also got 7 elijah blue festucas, some yellow twigged and red twigged dogwoods, china girl holly, cypress (chamaecyparis pisifera compacta), cypress sungold threadbranch, some rose of sharon, contorted hazelnut, etc. Not really helping the winter, but for spring I planted a bunch of bulbs last fall..tulips, daffodils, hyacinth, etc. And I moved a few azaleas up front and they put on quite a show. And here and there I am tucking in perennials such as daylillies and shasta daisies and sedum and salvia (heat tolerant stuff that I dont need to water). I put pumpkins on a rock last fall and seedlings that have sprouted will be this falls crop. And california poppies self seeded into several of the free spaces---Im a california native so I NEED this plant in my yard. Im open to any suggestions cause this is a work in progress. My only catch is I try to limit how much I spend on my yard--Im cheap. I spent less than $200 in plants--most were gifts or trades. The bobcat was borrowed from a friend for a day, and the only other cost was $150 for the gravel. Lastly, that stray dog just wandered into my yard. I havent been feeding him cause I wasnt sure if I wanted him to stick around. Heres a few of the animals I am feeding in our tiny little cape... pic of kids with pumpkins on rock... pics of pumpkin seedlings in front of rock... Sorry again about the hijack...greg (sunshineboy)

Thank all of you for allowing me to infiltrate your forum, despite ranting about plants that you are gardening with sans difficulty. To me, the problem is exactly the concept that gardeners like to share the wealth, and the receiver of bounty may find the behavior to be far different than the donor. That's how invasive species get started unintentionally. Why aren't we all on the same page? Some of it is commercial ventures like to make money as easily as possible. Which NE states have had to ban the production and sale of certain non-native ornamentals (like Berberis) because vendors wouldn't quit selling them, despite the pretty obvious effect this species was having on natural lands and plant communities? It is really hard to overcome this tendency, as well as the one where people can't fathom that an ornamental plant can behave badly. That's why I made the cockroach comment. I don't know too many folks that would defend these varmints (or rats) where they threaten our humble abodes. I consider most of the invasive species of plants to be "rooted roaches." Some people live too far north for roaches to be a problem, but...I bet they wouldn't have them around, even one, even if it couldn't reproduce! And they sure wouldn't share them with their friends. But gardeners are going to do what they are going to do. I just believe in providing the information - for them to do what they will with it - and not belabor and/or overmoralize. Well, maybe a little bit. A long time ago I made a comparison to growing known invasives to use of lead-based paint. As a society, we've decided that the dangers outweighed the benefits of a very good product, because the dangers couldn't be quashed and the danger was long-lasting. This might be the way to think about some of these plants that currently might eke by on current climate and growing seasons, which we know very well are not static. I mentioned above that I had planted a number of selections of Miscanthus sinensis around the Valley here. When I read up on their propensity to escape, and observed it myself around central KY, I determined that these plants would not be long for this world. I am just now reaching the end of that endeavor. I burned several large clumps in place last weekend to destroy the seedheads, and managed to singe two of my very nicest Ilex opaca ('Big Daddy' and 'Judy Evans') in the process. They had made quite the garden pairing. Today, out on the tundra, I cut back all the clumps that I could find that were the escapes and burned them. In the spring, I'll have to dislodge the root wads, or hit them with a graminicide to finish the job. I drive by the site of a former nursery that specialized in ornamental grasses and rhododendrons (what a KY mix!) daily on my way to work in Louisville. This nursery occupied about twenty acres, and that field (observable from I-64 in Shelby County) is now one vast mass of Miscanthus sinensis. You wouldn't believe it unless you saw it happen. I will get a picture of this site this winter. If someone cares to re-educate me on how to post a picture in a thread here, I'll share the scene. I took a read through the Garden Rant link. Some notable statements: "...environmentally neutral - neither a detractor nor a contributor." "He's also friends with Doug Tallamy... Well, I know Rick Darke personally too. He's lectured several times in Louisville, and I took him for a ride through Cherokee Park one winter. He's a fine fellow, and I admire his ethic and design/gardening style. He has quite the eye for arranging native and non-native plants in a way where you wouldn't notice that those plants wouldn't normally belong together. I don't agree with him on the subject of Miscanthus, though, for the reasons I've mentioned above. Also, if one of your gardening goals is to contribute to supporting native systems and local fauna, a non-contributor (which could be replaced by a native contributor) doesn't seem like the choice to make. Saying he's friends with Doug Tallamy is really throwing up a smoke screen! I just listened to a long lecture presented by Doug at the national ASLA conference in Philadelphia in early October. What a great presentation! He has the greatest photos of bugs you may ever want to see, especially the caterpillars. The thrust of his presentation: every native plant you put in the ground (especially ones fed on by native caterpillars) is a huge leverage to supporting those populations, as well as the rest of the fauna that feed on the caterpillars! Think about it... All the birds that eat caterpillars, and feed their young, etc., need those beasts around to support their life cycle. If the plants the caterpillars eat are not there, then they don't exist to support the birds, the birds don't raise as many young, and you see the spiral that begins. I highly recommend everyone take a look-see at getting Doug Tallamy's book Bringing Nature Home: How Native plants Sustain Wildlife in Our Gardens (Tallamy, D.W. 2007. Timber Press. Portland, Oregon). You can see more about the text at http://bringingnaturehome.net and you can delve into all things Doug at http://copland.udel.edu/~dtallamy/ if you haven't had enough. Apocalyptic? I don't mean to be, and I don't demean gardeners who plant what they like. I just think that there is a lot of opportunity for illumination, and every little bit helps to see the light and the big picture. Runk, trun is a wise man, in more ways than one... On another site, I've often offered up proposals for plant naming; trun has inspired another. Miscanthus sinensis Intensely Incestuous